Elders?

[mdehners]

Ever so often you’ll see a thread online about the subject. “Where ARE our Elders?”. As someone who has been part of Cybergard since the days when alt.pagen was the only “show in town”, I can answer the top 2 reasons.
1: Converted out.
Many of us became part of the alt.rel community in our teens and twenties. Many of the things that may have attracted you to your present Way then no longer do as you get in your 30’s, 40’s and older. Unfortunately, many never fully worked through their childhood religion issues and instead of looking for an alt.rel that would they just return to their previous Faith OR Convert to other more “conventional” religions. I know quite a few Buddhists that began in our community;>.

2: Withdrew.
I’ve personally done this a couple of times in the last two decades. You get tired of the squabbling in general, the disrespect to you personally and sadly, a heckovalot of shallow people who think this is a LARP. You 1st withdraw to closed groups/lists/etc. and then just a close group of friends….usually of the same Way as yourself.

The Truth is, I’ve yet to run into an online community that respects those who have put in a couple of decades on their particular Path, no matter the lip service. Many online communities have a high “tween” and under population(less than a decade and a half in), just the place you’d think those with more experience would be needed and welcomed. Sadly, not. For me, I PERSONALLY get tired of being put down because I don’t know the web source for something I learned 3 decades ago from a college Mythology text(which is where most of the CR and Nordic Folk looked for theirs). Not everything has a “wiki” and not all of that is ACCURATE.
I Honestly don’t know what can be done. In the last few yrs pretty much everyone I’ve known online more than a decade has withdrawn or Converted and a chitload of those over 5. And on some forums just posting this will invite “featherburn”…..
Cheers,
Pat

Comments

[jenett]

Hmmm. I tend to think it's more complicated than that. (Which is to say, of the couple of dozen people I know who've pulled back, *neither* of those is the primary reason they have.)

1) Conversational patterns have changed. There are many fewer really great forums or communities of *any* kind now.

A lot of the ones that are still successful (across a wide range of topics) are the ones that are pretty tightly focused and often very focused on practical stuff - hobby forums, for example, where the focus is on 'how to garden' or 'how to knit' or whatever. (The other place is well-moderated and managed blog-centered conversations, but those are also, by necessity, focused on a specific topic or blog creator's comments)

A lot of people have shifted casual online interaction to Facebook (or picked *up* casual online interaction with Facebook) or to some extent Tumblr but neither of these are (fairly intentionally, on their side) designed for lasting, sustained, persistent conversation. (i.e. a thread that develops over a period of days or weeks, rather than a matter of hours, or one where longer and deeper posts might be mingled with shorter comments)

And then there's all the inherent benefits and problems of online interaction. Not everyone has the skills to do it well (and not everyone *wants* the skills).

I have a couple of places where I spend time (and that are quite respectful of age and experience, as long as someone doesn't come swanning in expecting respect just because they say they should have it: someone who comes in, improves the conversation, shares resources when appropriate, etc. does just fine.) But there are plenty of other forums out there where I don't spend time because it's too much work for too little benefit.

2) The reasons I've seen people backing away from community interaction are mostly not your #1. Instead, I see one of three things;

* Burnout (which is something we could do more about as a community) - and yes, this is where constantly being on the defensive about what you know and why you know it really doesn't help. But among the folk I know, it's far more exhaustion with Drama and "Do we really have to do this round of endless discussion for the 20th time?" or not wanting to deal with another round of organisational ethics failure rather than disrespect or people asking for sources, or different conversational styles. (which yes, can be tiring, but are not the reason people are backing off from the community in and of themselves.)

* Increasing responsibilities elsewhere (someone who joined the Pagan community in their 20s, and who is now in their 30s probably has some combination of kids, older parents, or greater job responsibility than they did when they were in their 20s. For people who are older, the chances of a major health issue (for them or a close family member) or elderly parents just gets even higher. Which means people back off other commitments and interactions.

* Related to the above: I know a number of people (those who had truly dealt with their other religious history issues way back) find they want to be part of a community with better social support. Not necessarily "we have to believe the same thing", but the "I want a community when I'm having a hard time/to check in with me if I or a loved one is in the hospital/to be a place I can connect with others of sufficiently similar values without having to put a lot of effort into it, because I have tons of other stuff in my life, and finding friends is *hard*"

The folks I know who've gone back to Christianity aren't going back *just* because of that: in every case, it has been a deeply felt and truly sincere desire on the religious side as well. But they've also all been quite clear that the greater organisational and social support as they get older is a pretty substantial bonus and consideration when they pick *which* Christian community they join.

Again, that's something the Pagan communities at large could do a bit more to mitigate, in a lot of cases (though it really depends on population density: my first decade as a Pagan was in a major metropolitan area. My last two years have been in a very rural town. Just because someone else identifies as Pagan doesn't mean we actually have much in common, so my chances of finding like-valued people to form a supportive social community with in Minnesota were a lot higher than they are now in Maine just because there were More People.)

I don't mean ritual or coven settings here. I mean 'help with errands if you end up sick and homebound' and 'Check in with you if you're having a hard time' and 'place I can find friends who enjoy at least some of the same social things I do, without being event focused' (i.e. people to have dinner with, watch movies with, go for a walk with, rather than hobby interactions.)

[mdehners]

We've long given up Pagan community, let alone a Heathen one here on the Florida Panhandle. We have family and a few friends which take care of the general social needs. My Sister-In-Law is a bigtime Newager which is almost as bad as having a "Big C" Christian because she assumes I Believe what she does, even though it changes constantly. I do my Spiritual Work then my social life. I admit to being a Devotionally-oriented person so it is Alien to me that someone would change Ways simply for convenience or to socialize. Better to make "Mundane" friends who are disinterested in your Way than Convert simply so you have something to do when there's nothing on TV.
Cheers,
Pat

[jenett]

Some of us go where jobs in our field are.

I love my job, and being a librarian is part of my religious vocation and commitment. But library jobs are *hard* to come by, I got mine after a year being unemployed, and it's four hours from the nearest place where I have family or friends from before this job.

There is a lot I love about living here - I can afford a much higher quality of life (no need to have a housemate, I live walking distance from work, dealing with errands and daily life stuff is very pleasant) than I could in a metro area on a librarian's salary. But it has other issues, like the fact I'm 45 minutes drive from any town bigger than the one I live in (which is 8,000 people, some of whom are college students who I like, but don't necessarily want to build my social life around.)

I do have people in Boston - my mother and many of my college friends are there, and it's a manageable weekend trip for me. But that doesn't help if I end up hurt, or sick, or need mild help housecleaning for some reason, or a bunch of other non-computer-possible social connection things.

And I have all the other issues of small towns: there are limited places in the area to make social connections where I'm not going to overlap with either co-workers (potentially tricky but probably manageable) or library patrons (trickier) if I want to talk about some stuff in my life that's important to me with friendships (the general fact I'm Pagan rather than something else, the fact I have some chronic health issues, some of my past relationship history - I'm currently single and have been for a while, but my previous relationships were polyamorous). The fact I'm a geek is a lot easier for me to talk about, but that's not enough to build something beyond casual friendship.

One of my co-workers and I have become good friends - but someone's got to know I'm Pagan if they're going to become close enough where I might ask them to cat sit for me (I have an shrine up, after all, and all manner of Pagan books), or if I'm going to ask for help with some kinds of things related to the health foo, or any number of other 'beyond acquaintance' tasks. Right now, I'm sitting in the place where if I couldn't leave my apartment, I'm pretty sure my co-workers would chip in and help out (they're pretty awesome people), but where it'd lead to some more complicated conversations after the fact, and possibly a long-term change in how they viewed me.

I'd also like to be really clear: the friends I have who returned to Christianity weren't doing it because there "was nothing on TV" (and frankly, I find that comment extremely trivialising on their behalf). It was because established church communities are doing a lot than many other places (including vast swaths of the Pagan community) at certain kinds of social connection, support, commitment, provision of shared resources (especially around things like grief support or support while someone's in hospital, etc.) Part of that is *also* building sincere and meaningful friendships, because that's part of how healthy communities sustain themselves.

At least one of my friends really values having a larger community that is committed to and engaged with about social justice issues, and where they have enough people to do regular meaningful activities that help in that area (everything from the recent push in Minnesota for marriage equality to supporting people in immigration detention to all sorts of other things.) In contrast, the MN Pagan community is doing some of that, but not very often, and not always as effectively as other parts of the larger community.

And so for people whose religious inclinations are leading them in a particular direction (in these cases, toward Christianity) anyway, I totally understand (and support) my friends in recognising that those things matter. Sometimes a very great deal.

It's not about boredom. (All of the people I'm talking about here are interesting, engaged people with lots of other community connections and interactions.) It's about a particular kind of social support, integration, and engagement in parallel with their larger spiritual values. Some people I know find that with the UUs, or the Quakers, or a couple of other places. But some people find it within Christianity, for reasons having to do with specific congregations, locations, or their personal history.